What do you guys think about this...

Discussion in 'Reality Check' started by ~*Ash*~, Feb 13, 2009.

  1. ~*Ash*~

    ~*Ash*~
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    The Saskatchewan man who pleaded guilty to criminal negligence causing the freezing death of his two young daughters appeared to struggle for words Friday as his sentencing circle began.

    Christopher Pauchay looked at the floor, mumbled "I'm sorry," and broke down during the hearing in Rose Valley, Sask., near the First Nation community where the girls died.

    Pauchay pleaded guilty to the offence last year after losing daughters Kaydance, 3, and Santana, 15 months, in blizzard-like conditions that felt like –50 C. with the wind chill.

    Court has previously heard Pauchay was drunk at the time. The girls were later found dead of hypothermia.


    More than 20 other people, including elders and other people from the community, are participating in the sentencing circle, a relatively rare procedure that brings together the offender, his family, members of his community, aboriginal elders and others to make sentencing recommendations.

    For weeks, the sentencing circle has been a topic of controversy on call-in radio shows and online forums.

    Some have argued that there could be no punishment worse than the father knowing he was responsible for the death of his girls. Others have expressed outrage that Pauchay might get off with a light to non-existent jail sentence for the deaths.

    However, many people apparently don't understand how sentencing circles actually work, said Tim Quigley, a University of Saskatchewan law professor.

    It's the judge who will make the final decision on the sentence, not the circle, he said. Furthermore, Pauchay will be forced to listen as his community talks about his crime, he said.

    A normal sentencing hearing is much easier to sit through, he added.

    "It's actually more onerous for the offender to go through this type of a sentencing process than the regular process because he has to hear what people have to say, how they have been affected by the crime," he said.

    Pierre Rousseau, a retired Crown prosecutor who worked in Canada's North, says sentencing circles are far from perfect, but they give the community a chance to get involved in the judicial system.

    "Even though the judge gets the ultimate decision, at least the community can provide some feedback, which was a real change from the past, where there was not that much feedback from the communities," he said.

    After the sentencing circle is finished, a sentencing hearing will be held where Crown and defence lawyers will give their recommendations on sentencing.

    The Crown is suggesting a sentence of 2½ to five years in prison. The defence says the judge should consider a non-jail conditional sentence
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    It pisses me off that all of the "visible races" complain about equality because I think if he was white he would be in jail right away but because he is native he gets special treatment... :rolleyes:

    RIP
     
  2. thunder

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    Special treatment? It sounds like the judge decides on the final sentence anyway, just like everyone else?
     
  3. sammy

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    holy shiiiit.
     
  4. ~*Ash*~

    ~*Ash*~
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    Maybe I read it wrong then! I was thinking that the judge was from the circle...
     
  5. thunder

    my av is me

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    Oh, and I think its fucking horrible that it happened, and I think the douche should be put in jail for whatever sentence is appropriate... I just dont think this circle thing really affects much of the actual sentence.
     
  6. dpwu32

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    ...and if the judge doesn't closely follow what the fucking pow-wow crew decides his sentence should be, the natives will all protest/cry/huff gas.

    Fuck that. Canada needs the goddamn death sentence. People should be held accountable for their actions. End of story.
     
  7. thunder

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    "After the sentencing circle is finished, a sentencing hearing will be held where Crown and defence lawyers will give their recommendations on sentencing."

    Sounds like its not the circle that decides. :)
     
  8. ~*Ash*~

    ~*Ash*~
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    Well what is the purpose of it then? I think I am confused lol
     
  9. thunder

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    How do you know that the circle's recommendations wouldn't be stronger than what the Crown dishes out?
     
  10. thunder

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    I dont know :confused: I'm not an aboriginal, so I really can't comment. But I suppose when you're a part of a culture that is more collectivist, the impact that your actions had on the community may mean more to you, and thus hearing this from community members may be effective in some respect?

    I really have no clue... but if they want to have their circle and tell him off, and it doesn't effect the sentence he gets... then I dont see why its an issue?
     
  11. ~*Ash*~

    ~*Ash*~
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    No issue, I was just curious :) You're a smart gal hahahaha
     
  12. dpwu32

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    I don't know at all. I would just assume since the douche drunk father spends his weekends getting hammered with Johnny Wigwam, that Johnny will give him less of a sentence... :shrug:

    But that's just my assumption. Probably miles from the truth...:hsugh:
     
  13. thunder

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    Who knows. It will be interesting to find out though :)
     
  14. PitBull

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    At the same time though - if it was someone who was close to girls... Could end up being harsher.
     
  15. boing

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    :hsugh:


    http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/587620


    Chris Purdy
    THE CANADIAN PRESS

    ROSE VALLEY, Sask. – Native elders are recommending that a Saskatchewan father serve a life sentence of spiritual guidance and healing instead of time behind bars for the freezing deaths of his two young girls.

    During five hours of emotional discussion, most of the two dozen participants in a sentencing circle for Christopher Pauchay spoke of forgiveness and helping each other to move on.

    "How can we begin a community healing if we are apart from one another – if he's not here with us?" asked elder Howard Walker.

    Walker said he has worked in jails across the country and believes Pauchay, 25, can only be rehabilitated at home.

    "Every day you must think of your little girls – that's punishment enough," said elder Evelyn Burns.

    A barely audible Pauchay tried several times to address the circle being held in a town hall close to his home, but managed to speak only briefly between his sobs.

    "I'll say sorry every day of my life," he told the circle.

    Later, raising his voice, he spoke about his third daughter, born a few months after the tragedy.

    Social services officials have since put her into foster care.

    "That's all I had left and you took her away. My rights didn't matter," Pauchay said.

    His common-law wife, Tracey Jimmy, also spoke with anger about losing her new baby, named Miracle.

    Jimmy said she's also upset she can't see or talk to Pauchay because of a court restraining order. Pauchay faces a further charge of domestic assault against her.

    "He was just such a good dad. I just love him and you guys are taking him away from me – the only person who can actually feel what I'm feeling," Jimmy said through tears, sitting across the circle from Pauchay.

    "What kind of society is that?"

    It was January 2008 when Pauchay and Jimmy had an argument. Jimmy went off drinking, and Pauchay was left at home to care for their two children.

    In the middle of the night, during a freezing blizzard, he left home with his daughters and got lost as he stumbled drunk in the snow.

    Kaydance, 3, and Santana, 15 months, were found hours later buried under snowdrifts. They were wearing only diapers and T-shirts.

    Pauchay pleaded guilty in November to criminal negligence causing death.

    Provincial Court Judge Barry Morgan, who also sat in the circle, said he can't promise he will follow the recommendations but will consider them closely. He will give his sentencing decision March 6.

    The Crown, comparing the case to child abuse, has indicated it wants Pauchay to serve 2 1/2 to five years in prison. The defence believes he has suffered enough and should receive a conditional sentence.
     
  16. tribeachpunk

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  17. Omerta

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    2.5 to 5 years? Go Canada....
     
  18. dpwu32

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    I'm assuming by spiritual guidance, they mean getting hammered, huffing gas, mooching off of a great country, and generally contributing to society as little as possible, right?

    Yeah, a life sentence of spiritual guidance should really make him clean up his act...






    My fuck. Here's hoping the judge the makes the final decision has half a fucking brain...
     
  19. thunder

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    Plus he will be released after serving 2/3 of his sentence.

    I think blaming him alone is though, since there is obviously the contribution of the native 'lifestyle', of which I have a hard time feeling that society as a whole hasn't contributed to.

    I just hope changes are eventually made so these sorts of things stop happening :( Nobody chooses to be born into poverty, etc.

    I'm such a socialist :rolleyes:
     
  20. dpwu32

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    My ancestors were welsh, scottish, and french.

    I'm going to Wales, Scotland, and France to demand retribution in the form of the country on a silver platter, brb
     
  21. thunder

    my av is me

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    I'm welsh and scottish too.

    Lets make out.
     
  22. thunder

    my av is me

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    (but english instead of french)
     
  23. Pinkette

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    The Judge does get the final decision. The elders make a recomendation, the judge listens and then makes a decision.
    Sometimes the recomendation will be what the judge goes with if they feel it is a justifiable punishment. Other times the judge goes with something else. The elders know they are only there for suggestions.
    If the judge chose to go with "a lifetime of spiritual guidance" Then buddy would more than likely get house arrest with mandatory counselling. He wouldn't just say "ok your free to go but maybe go home and burn some sweet grass"

    I personally think this is a good way of dealing with things. During the circle people get the chance to talk. They get the chance to let the offender know what they have done and how it has affected everyone. How is this any different from victum statements where the family gets a chance to have their say about how they were affected by the offense before the judge makes a decision?

    Also as for the "spiritual guidance" This would be done by the Elders. It would not mean drinking and huffing gas. A gas huffer or an alcoholic does not become an Elder. You get appointed as an Elder because you have led a good life. Elders are there to try and help people and for spiritual reasons. In fact in order to touch any type of sacred item such as a drum etc you are required to have not drank any alcohol etc for a certain period of time.

    Part of my family is native, so I do know a little bit. Once I went to my grandmothers and she was showing me a drum she had made. Before she would let me touch it she asked me if I had any alcohol at all recently. I told her I had a half a glass of wine the night before during dinner and she wouldn't let me touch it :kekeke:
     
  24. dpwu32

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    I'd reply, but I'm still on the other side of the Atlantic, trying to be handed the world because my great great great great great grandparents suffered hardships.

    brb
     
  25. Pinkette

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    Not all natives are like that.
    Just the retarded ones.
     
  26. dpwu32

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    Absolutely they're not all like that! I've met a few that were hard workers, and didn't want to be handed anything.

    However, the majority are like that, because our government has allowed them to become that way. Sad, but it's a fact.
     
  27. Sublime

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    I normally don't post much, more of a lurker... but this just makes me so angry and I was hoping I wasn't the only one who is apalled at the implication of the three bolded lines above.

    So... the mother was about 6 months pregnant. Quite probably visibly so by that point and when they get in a fight and she goes off DRINKING!? This just bothers me :( And she is angry about losing her new baby to social services? Please.
     
  28. hank

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    I was going to post the same thing. :ugh2:
     
  29. Burrahobbit

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    isnt this a self correcting problem?
     
  30. thunder

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    When a person suffers from alcoholism, while some may be able to give it up no problem once they get pregnant, many cant. Some addictions treatment centers, such as the one I work with, give women who are pregnant a front-of-the-line pass to get into their program. But then some people are so dependent on a substance, I guess they couldn't fathom giving it up. I assume the smokers around here might understand what an addiction consists of.

    That said, I obviously think drinking whille pregnant is horrible.
     
  31. Shellie

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    'Wanton, reckless' tragedy

    Judge sentences frozen girls’ dad to three years in prison

    By JENNIFER GRAHAM The Canadian Press

    ROSE VALLEY, Sask. — A Saskatchewan man’s behaviour that led to the freezing deaths of his two young daughters was "wanton and reckless" and deserves a three-year prison term, a judge ruled Friday.

    Christopher Pauchay stood quietly and looked straight ahead as Judge Barry Morgan handed down the sentence in the deaths of Kaydance, 3, and Santana, 1.

    It was January 2008 when Pauchay stumbled drunk from his home on the Yellow Quill First Nation and lost the girls in a frigid blizzard. He pleaded guilty in November to criminal negligence causing death.

    "The children were completely helpless and vulnerable, and were totally dependent upon Mr. Pauchay for their care," said Morgan. "Mr. Pauchay’s conduct that night clearly demonstrated a wanton and reckless disregard for the lives and safety of his children."

    Court was told Pauchay, 25, had been drinking and didn’t remember much about what happened. He did recall that one of his girls was hurt and he needed to get help.

    But once outside, the girls became separated from their father.

    A neighbour later found Pauchay on her front doorstep. He was taken to hospital suffering from severe frostbite and hypothermia. Eight hours later, when he was able to speak, he asked about his children.

    That set off a frantic search which ended when the girls, clad only in diapers and T-shirts, were found dead under snowdrifts.

    Both girls died of hypothermia. An autopsy found the oldest girl had a small cut on her leg.

    Defence lawyer Ron Piche repeatedly told court that Pauchay was a doting father who had a momentary lapse in judgment.

    During sentencing arguments earlier this week, Pauchay himself said: "There’s a lot of people that think wrongly about me. Those were my girls and I loved them." Pauchay also told the court that going to jail wouldn’t help him or his family.

    http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1109973.html
     
  32. thunder

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    Is 3 years enough for someone who neglected and killed his daughters... especially when any given convict will serve only 2/3 of their sentence?

    I honestly don't know. You can violently rape multiple women and only get a couple years. Our legal system kinda sucks.
     
  33. Elcoopto

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    It was a judge? I thought he was gettign a sentencing circle?
     
  34. boing

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    The circle was just a recommendation of what would be best for this fine young man. The judge had the final say, and really drooped the ball.
     
  35. tribeachpunk

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    What's the max for negligence causing death?
     

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