Discussion in 'Reality Check' started by C. Mike Hunt, Nov 2, 2019.
So this just happened...
EDIT: Imgur'd for posterity
I sincerely hope that there isn't a copyright on the original Las Vegas design...
Snow...that's the November nonsense. Swapped the new tires onto the car this morning in the driveway though...bring it.
Yup. Bolted the Blizzaks onto the Taco on Wednesday. Got a few cm down and still falling now...
November nonsense. How appropriate. This country needs to give it's head a shake. I served this country proudly. I have brothers and sisters in the Canadian Forces who have served and sacrificed. And they still serve. Even in a pale shadow of what used to be a strong and proud Canadian Armed Forces. I truly am ashamed to call myself Canadian at this point. What a double standard country. We have a "leader" who commits rediculously heinous and racist acts and gets re-elected, is found guilty of ethics breaches, and walks away unscathed.
Don Cherry, an 85 year old Canadian icon.... Stands up for the poppy wearing in honour of Rememberance day....a timeless tradition... Stands up for exactly what our veterans fought for... freedom of speech. To give us a glorious country where everyone is allowed to speak their mind, where immigrants strive to have a fresh start and higher standard of life... Does not say anything actually racist.... Immigrants can be anyone. In fact, the vast majority of Canadians are technically immigrants.... He reminds them to honour the freedom they sought in coming here. And loses his job. Has those he stood beside turn their backs on him. He stood up for Rememberance day... And was fired on Rememberance day. What is happening to Canada? This is not a pro conservative or liberal post. This is a what the fuck is happening post.
Canada? Fuck this. This country should be ashamed of itself.
Again, the image I'm sharing here. Im not directing it at the left. It should say Canada shouldn't be allowed to say racist.
First of all, and more important than anything else, thanks Grifter for serving our country.
Don Cherry’s comments, while coming from the right place (supporting our vets) took aim at a specific group of people with no backing or understanding. I am amazed Don has kept his job as long as he has. He’s been spouting divisive, racist talk for years, most of which had nothing at all to do with hockey. It’s long past time and good on someone finally having the balls to pull the plug.
What hairyass said...also it is freedom of speech, not freedom of consequences.
What he said was not directed at any particular group. We are on one hand telling people it's okay to be racist. That you can be a person of power, act like an idiot, and get away with it. Without *ANY* consequence.
Then on the other, firing a Canadian icon for spouting something that has good moral values, but was directed at immigrants. Not immigrants from a certain country, or skin colour, or religious beliefs, or background... People coming to this country because of what they believed we valued. Which, evidently, we do not. *Anymore*.
Yes, you are right. I respect that. But maybe we should have ONE standard. And uphold it. If others didn't do what they want and get away with it, id have no issues. But what was said was not necessarily grounds to fire him.
You're kind of right. He's always been controversial. But, what he said was very loose for interpretation. It was vague. He said immigrants. Not Muslim immigrants, not Russians, not British, not Syrian refugees. Immigrants. It's vague. I mean, here is a quote.
"You people you come here you love our way of life, you love our milk and honey, at least you can pay a couple bucks for a poppy or something like that," Cherry said during the controversial segment. "These guys paid for your way of life that you enjoy in Canada, these guys paid the biggest price."
What's racist about that? Where is he so wrong? It's directed at no particular group. Immigrant is a broad term. Like I said, most of us are likely immigrants. My roots can be traced to Ireland. My wife is Scottish/German. It's a broad stroke of a brush.
“I have just learned I’ve been fired by Sportsnet for comments made on Coach’s Corner Nov. 9,” Cherry told Warmington. “No problem.”
“I know what I said and I meant it. Everybody in Canada should wear a poppy to honour our fallen soldiers.”
“I speak the truth and I walk the walk,” he said. “I have visited the bases of the troops, been to Afghanistan with our brave soldiers at Christmas, been to cemeteries of our fallen around the world and honoured our fallen troops on Coach’s Corner.”
“To keep my job, I cannot be turned into a tamed robot,” said Cherry." I would have liked to continue doing Coach’s Corner. The problem is if I have to watch everything I say, it isn’t Coach’s Corner.”
“I want to thank everyone who has watched Coach’s Corner over the last 35 years,” he said.
His final message.
“Remember to wear your poppy to honour our fallen soldiers … Thumbs up.”
Good for him.
My main point is the double standard that's become COMPLETELY acceptable in Canada now. It's a fucking joke.
I wont bother arguing the double standard with you - in your first post, you posted a picture that was political and tried to say it wasn't political... but it's political. So, I won't go into the path I saw Trudeau took in dealing with that (apologizing, owning his past and how it was wrong and his current record on immigration and with POC).
We're in a period of time (making history) in trying to change the way we approach all of these things - the #metoo movement, dealing with what a more integrated society looks like as a whole, etc etc. Cherry was (and has been in the past) wrong about what he says about things. How you say things *does* matter. But he's 85 and unlikely to accept or change that - fine. Moving forward, we need to embrace new ways of thinking about these types of issues.
From 1989 to about 2005 I was a fan of Don , even when he was a dick about non-canadians. The last decade he has been getting exponentially worse, more brazen with his comments. His speaking ability has gotten worse which has likely attributed to that. I respect his passion for the troops, I love how he cares about safety for players yet trying to stand up for games physicality, and I love his love for children and students of the game. However, he painted every group but one with a single brush in an attempt to show his passion. It's too bad, but it was too much. Years of no consequences finally caught up to him and I agree with Sportsnet...he went too far.
People are now using this as a political weapon with an army of Internet memes, it's really a shame. All it does is expose the ignorance more, on all sides, that we normally see in social media these days.
I did say the picture says the left. I would change it to say *Canadians*. I said that immediately before the picture in the post. With Trudeau, he did apologise. I get that. But that doesn't mean he should get away with it. It is a double standard. He has proven time and again, what he says and preaches are one thing, and what he does another. He gets away with things he preaches he should not.
I'm not trying to say that what you say doesn't matter. I'm saying, he should not have been fired. What he said does not constitute the consequences he has suffered.
While I don't agree with his comments, I don't agree with firing him. He's an 85 year old man. You can't put an 85 year old man on television with an open mic and not expect him to say something offensive
First I have to ask have you ever just thanked a Canadian Vet not on Remembrance day before going to work in the US?
I just signed my release papers in Mid October and I have traveled on my military ID and while in US you are thanked for your service all the time even when they know you are Canadian Military and it's nice to hear and see the way the Vets are treated there while here it's a completely different story.
I think Don Cherry's was right on the ball. How far are Canadian willing to bend and to give up?
I am all for immigration and I am not racist I don't agree with open borders. I know most of us came form somewhere else and that a country needs people to grow but a country also need to keep it's core identity.
People who came here in the past have adapted to Canada. I am going to date myself here but back in the 80's there were "Boat People" that were showing up in Nova Scotia and I was in junior high and the kids were in school with everyone else their english was bad but they learned and just fit in and the same with every other, red, purple, green, striped, polka dotted group that came to this country until recently....
It's the Pussification of the country.
I think that's the most I have ever typed on here, and it's about Don Cherry I am a VERY PROUD Canadian but don't even follow hockey.
So are you upset that Cherry was fired or that Trudeau wasn't? Because considering Cherry's age, I'd be willing to put money down that at sometime in the past he and anyone else from his generation has said a hell of a lot worse that what he said, or what Trudeau did.
These were different events, with different people, with decisions made by different people. I don't see how they are connected. Budweiser threatened to pull their advertising as did other companies. Their hands were tied.
It's the principal. It's the double standard. One person can get away with it, one person can't.
I am not debating that Cherry is a controversial guy. You either love him or hate him. And he definitely says some things that show his age and need to retire or have his mic turned off sometimes...
You asked are these connected? Nope. They aren't. But are they examples of similar events of people in a position of influence? Yes. Are they recent? Yes.
I've made it abundantly clear that I think what he said does not warrant the consequences he suffered. People have done, and gotten away with worse. People who should be leading by example, especially when they are setting the bar.
But, I should know better than to expect all the folks on here to understand. I guess take what I said as a vent. I'm extremely frustrated with the way this country is going. I can't believe how it's changed, and in my opinion, not necessarily for the better. Yes, people should not be able to say things that are racist and get away with it. People should be aware of what they are saying. I whole heartedly get that. I have served this country, I used to be proud of it. I at one time would have gladly given my life for it, defending what I believed this country stood for, and represented.
Now? Now I'm questioning that. Now I'm not so sure. This country to me, has become a contradiction. It has become a joke on the world scale for many things it used to be a leader in. It's lost.
Half the country is divided, half it has turned its back on the other half. And I'm not turning this into a Conservative vs Liberal stance. I'm talking about principals and values as a whole.
People should be able to say what they believe. Don Cherry's statements, while yes, they can be interpreted as possibly racist...or directed at a certain group.... They are just that. POSSIBLE to interpret differently than maybe he meant it. Like I said and Wayne said; It was a blanket statement. But it is a golden example of this country changing. He was fired. When other people have done WAY worse, and carried on like nothing happened.
How is that in any way fair?
How is that leading a good example?
How is that Canada?
I don't know. And I'm scared. I don't like the way things are going. I was raised differently. I was raised to have traditional values. I was raised to stand up for what's right. I proudly sang the national anthem. I hate that they changed it. I was raised to take my hat off when I enter a legion. Or at the table. To hold the door for my wife. I don't discriminate because of religion or skin colour. I was taught to pay for the meals back when I was dating women. I was spanked. I don't swear around children. I had my mouth washed out with soap when I swore or told lies. I treated poor people just like wealthy people. I was taught to respect people no matter how they make a living. (So long as it was legal). I loved my country because of what it meant to my family. Because of how I was brought up. I have the fucking Canada flag tattooed on my arm.
But even reality check has changed. There's an example of animosity with the political standpoints. I'm guilty of treating liberals poorly. Others are guilty of animosity based on oil and gas, west vs east. Etc. That's not how I was raised. I can, and should do better on that front.
But, Canada? I dunno if I was raised wrong, and maybe it's me.... But I feel this country has lost its way. This Don Cherry thing, it's made me shake my head. I know that it's not just me. But what's happened? I can't begin to answer it knowing if I'm correct...
To your first question - no, I do not in general thank vets for their service outside of Remembrance Day. There are some exceptions to that - specifically if I know someone has been involved in something where they went above and beyond, I will for sure. But this is the same with anyone who puts themselves in danger to make our society safer or make society's life better (police, teachers, nurses, doctors, etc).
Living in the US, I do see how vets are treated much differently. Vets also wear a lot more flair showing off that they're vets - it is really in your face a lot of the time.
I disagree with you on some of your points about immigration. To a certain extent, it feels like what you're saying is that folks immigrating to Canada should have to give up their identity and culture. Your specific example about "boat people" (it's ok, we can call them Vietnamese) is a good one and something I remember well. On the flip side, talk to any immigrants from Vietnam now about that time period and it was not good or easy for them. They felt they had to assimilate in order to survive.
Immigration should not have to equal assimilation.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "pussification of the country" but accepting someone for who they are and that they have a different background from me in almost every way is fine and actually the stronger thing to do. Looking at someone and saying, "they're different - why can't they be more like me", is weak. There is lots to learn from different viewpoints, different ways of looking at life, etc, etc.
Oh, by the way, boing - thanks for your service. I have no idea what you did while in the military, but I do appreciate that you made that part of your life and put yourself out there to protect Canada in whatever way you did.
The decisions were made on two separate and entirely different events by two different sets of "decision makers" basing it on different factors.
I don't believe it's a double standard based on the above but, to acknowledge your concern, let's assume that you were the one making the decision and whatever decision you made had to apply to both Trudeau and Cherry. Which would you have done? Fire them both, or let them continue on?
Seems odd to say that you don't think Don Cherry should have been fired for offending someone but you think Trudeau should have been. I agree with boing on the whole 'pussification of the country' statement except I wouldn't use that description. To me the problem is everyone sitting around on social media waiting to be offended by something and demanding they be fired/cancelled. I don't agree with that at all.
No Immigration should not have to equal assimilation but look at parts of Europe that have open boarders and are now having religion assimilated on them.
I see people coming here and trying to make Canada into the Country they left and not accepting Canada as their Country.
I know they are Vietnamese but back then they were called "boat people" and that is why I used the term the way I did. Sorry if I offended you people.
I served in Canadian Rangers from 2007 until 2019 I had to leave due to health issues. Not a glorious position but an important little cog in the bigger wheel of Canada and the leaders always like to have their pictures taken with the Rangers in their Red Jackets when they visit the North.
I don't think immigration should be assimilation. You're right. But the people that come here also should not force Canada to change into what they came from. Changing our national anthem.... Changing the RCMP uniform, etc, etc. I am all for education about their culture, and sharing it, but I should not have to change my culture to some one else's. That being said, I recognize that there are religious values that should be respected, and the turban with RCMP uniform may be a poor example for the point I'm trying to make, but it's a point none the less. That also being said... Turbans now can be worn when riding a motorcycle, at least in Alberta. A helmet is no longer mandatory. That's caused a lot of debate based on the fact that I have to wear a helmet, he does not. How is that fair, just because of religion. Those are not my thoughts, as I don't ride a motorcycle, but I can see the point. There are South African people I know that had to jump through hoops to get their citizenship and almost gave up. They moved here like 8 or 9 years ago to make better lives for their children, away from corruption on a scale I can't even fathom. Yet refugees who have come here for less than three tears got citizenship ahead of them. How is that ok? Those other refugees make more on handouts from the government than veterans do collecting their cheques... It's pitiful. Let alone healthcare and whatnot. But that's not what this debate is about. Again.... Ranting.
This country is VERY accommodating in the sense that it's now literally bending laws to accommodate people.
For the question of what would I have done... honestly can say that if I were in charge I would've turfed Trudeau. Based on the fact that he has been a champion of the views and "rules" that have come to light in the past few years. Yet he demonstrates that he doesn't live by them. And boots... What Don said was open to interpretation. You literally could interpret it to mean syrians. Or Italians. Or Irish. Or Americans... It's so vague and blanketing. What Trudeau did? He targeted women. He targeted black people. He targeted Muslims. It's very different.
But, with Don Cherry... I doubt I'd fire him. The way I interpret what he said? Not racist. Questionable? Yes. Poor taste? Maybe. Heart in the right place? Hell yes. That being said, Don should've retired years ago, but I still love the guy.
But I'm not in charge. And I don't wanna be. I'm not qualified. (Kinda like Trudeau) to make those decisions. I'm a fucking firefighter/ex military grunt. Not the guy to make those choices.
I'm not even 35 though. But this bull shit makes me feel like a 65 year old yelling at the kids to get off my lawn.
Grifter - You stuff a lot into your posts!
I never once felt, when I was living in Canada (for 40+ years), that an immigrant was imposing their views or culture on me. In many cases, they have a different background (religious, country they were born, etc) but it always led to good conversations, a chance to understand a culture different from my own, and talk about a future together. That was in Halifax and Ottawa for the most part. Perhaps there are other areas of the country where this is different. I know when I visit Vancouver, it feels like a much different place - neither good nor bad but man the influence from China can be felt on the prices of everything there at the very least. I have never spent a lot of time in Alberta.
Some of the examples you've posted about are specific to changing things in Canada for what you've listed in the same breath as immigration but are related to the LGBQT community (the anthem, for instance), not with immigrants. Again, it feels like you are reacting to "anything different than me". I assume (and I'm sorry if I'm wrong) that you're not part of the LGBQT community so having to accept change that is spurred by that community feels wrong to you. The fact is, though, that this community has existed in Canada forever but has not had a proper voice in society or felt included. I would argue it is a step forward to fix this and make our country more inclusive.
The point I'm really trying to make - your rants come across as "anything different from me is bad". As a society (not just Canada but around the world), we need to be better than that.
So, in your view, immigration == pussification? Sorry, I'm trying to understand what I'm missing.
Honestly, what I'm reading is that you think Don Cherry getting fired for being a racist means that our country is "less strong". Am I misunderstanding?
Where do you see people coming to Canada and trying to make Canada into the country they left? What does "accepting Canada as their country" mean?
If that's how it comes across it is not my intent.
I'm just being honest - not trying to be a "me vs. you" thing.